How To Get More Referrals with Bill Cates

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How To Get More Referrals, Bill Cates And Simon Severino | STRATEGY SPRINTS 181

In this episode, Simon welcomes Bill Cates, the relationship marketing expert of Referral Coach International, hall of Fame Speaker, author of "Get More Referrals Now!", Beyond Referral, Radical Relevance" and the Cates System for Exponential Growth. His mission is to help professionals
and companies attract more ideal clients through more compelling value, referrals, and introductions. Listen to how Bill Cates shares steps we can take to get more referrals.


3 Valuable Insights

  • Work to control what we can control
  • People appreciate it when we are doing something just for them
  • Think about all the different things I can do to serve people and generate revenue


Show Notes

(00:02) Simon: So three, two, one, roll the footer. Welcome back everybody. To the strategy sprints’ podcast. I'm your host Simon Severino. And my guest today is an internationally recognized client acquisition expert, author speaker who motivates others to take action with proven strategies, his successful entrepreneur. He started at sold two-book publishing companies, turning his attention to help other businesses grow. He has written four best-selling books. Get more referrals. Now don't keep me a secret, beyond referrals and radical relevance. Welcome everybody. Bill Cates.

(00:51) Bill Cates: Uh, not bill Gates. Sorry. I missed it by one letter. I'm sorry to disappoint you. Now. We lose half of the people, but he's

(01:01) Simon: We didn't see, but I had exactly this experience I saw on my calendar. Oh, I'm talking to bill Gates really? Like, should I, should I say, Hey team, you did it. Or is this a C it's a C, people, it’s a c, super excited.

(01:20) Bill Cates: Bill Gates has a lot of money. I'm going to help you make a lot of money. How's that sound? Is that good? Huh?

(01:26) Simon: Good. We need it. And the people listening right now, they have right now, a lot of need of getting back on track, amplifying their sales and marketing activities, shifting to a form of marketing that is appropriate to the current times. And this is where your system comes in really handy because it is about multiplying your current best clients. So tell us, bill, what are you currently creating?

(01:59) Bill Cates: Sure. Well, you know, just to address that real quickly, you know, during the pandemic and during, when things are just a lot different and a little bit off, uh, we, we work to control what we can control, right? Uh, it's a trite, but true statement. And so one of the things we can control right now is, uh, at least to a degree, our relationships with our clients or customers and how we keep those engaged and, and over-serve them and keep them happy and all that good stuff, and then leverage that, right? How do we leverage that to get introduced to more people like them multiply your best clients? So now that's, that's an age old strategy, right? Referrals, introductions, recommendations, it's something we've always wanted and needed to do. And now probably more important than ever before. Uh, what I'm working on. Now, two things, one related to the referral process, uh, I'm writing my next book, which is called the language of referrals.

(02:57) Bill Cates: And you know, one of the things that people seem to like about the work I've been doing for 25 years is giving people the right words to say, if you will, you know, to, to bring on new clients and, uh, ask for referrals and turn them into introductions and all those sorts of things. And, and now everyone's going to have to use the words that fit for them, but I tend to be a little bit of a wordsmith. And so the language, right? And people love the, how do I say that? Or how would I say that? So that's my next book, hopefully will be out in 2021, uh, in the fall. And, uh, the other thing I'm working on is a video training course based on my latest book, radical relevance. So we're taking everything from the book and we're putting it into a video training form. So, uh, you know, some people will read the book and they'll get some good ideas and act on those ideas, which is great. Other people like to go through a more methodical transformational process using video and other tools. So that's, those are my two big projects for this year.

(03:56) Simon: Beautiful. And we want to hear everything about your referral process, because we had experts here who said, referrals means you have to ask everybody all the time and then others have said, never ask. You have to do it in a very different ways. So some people might be confused right now, how can they grow via referral?

(04:19) Bill Cates: Sure. So I want you to think in terms of, of, of three words and I'll, I'll go elaborate on each one. The first one is in engagement, client engagement, customer engagement. What we've, the studies we've done is shown that, while satisfied clients and customers are loyal, only about 20% will actually create word of mouth and referrals. So there's actually a low correlation between customer or client satisfaction and the giving of referrals. What we need is engage clients and an engaged client is, and everyone on this call right now are there. You're doing this, but I want to highlight it a little bit more. If they see your value, right, you've made a value connection, and you also you've made a personal connection. And so throughout the entire lifetime of your relationship with your clients or customers, prospects, brand new clients, ongoing, we always need to think in terms of both value, connection and personal connection, and what that will do will create more referrals without asking every business, yours, mine, everyone listening should be getting referrals without asking.

(05:26) Bill Cates: That's a barometer of your referral ability. I've had some people come to me for coaching and, and say, bill, you know, my clients love me, but we're not getting many referrals. And I go, okay, let's get back to that. My clients love me thing, you know, cause maybe, yeah, maybe they like you a lot, but they're not advocates yet. Right? We haven't turned them into advocates. So that's the, that's the engagement part. And, you know, serving your clients well, creating engaged clients or customers will create incremental and we should all be getting that. But if you want to create exponential growth, if you want to multiply your best clients or customer, you do need to ask, you do need to be appropriately proactive. So anyone who tells you not to ask either they haven't discovered the right way to do it, or they're just projecting their fear onto you.

(06:18) Bill Cates: So don't let them do that. There is a way to do this, a way to do it. Very professional. I've been doing it for 25 years. It works. And so that's, that's the leverage part. And then introduction or connection I should say, is the introduction getting connected, right? These days, just calling someone up and saying, Hey, George recommended, I give you a call or if it's too cold, we need to get, it needs to get warmed up. Right? And so I call it an email handshake and electronic handshake is one of the best ways to do it. When the pandemic is over, then we can maybe start doing some more in-person introductions again. Uh, but for now it's probably going to be through email. So engagement, leverage, and connection. And then you get connected to these new prospects and you create engagement with them. And guess what? The wheel just keeps turning and turning and you have an unlimited flow of good quality clients coming your way.

(07:11) Simon: This sounds great. And I want to hear every detail first one word from the sponsors.

Alright. So we have clients but they are may be engaged or we get an NPS score. It says, yeah, 10, 10, 10, but they don't feel the urge to tell about our services to their friends, what we do there.

(07:45) Bill Cates: Yeah. So actually I was talking to a marketing, um, uh, uh, VP of a bank, uh, about a month ago. And she said to me, uh, bill, we have high net promoter scores, you know, we're nine, nine and a half. People love us. Uh, I go, great. You know, what are you doing with that? And she goes, what do you mean? So we know that Frank Reichheld wrote the book, uh, the ultimate question all about the net promoter score. And it's a great book. And net promoter scores are very valuable, but I would suggest that the, then the ultimate question is not, are your clients or customers willing to talk about you? Are they talking about you? Do you have processes in place? Have you created a culture to stimulate that? That's the mistake that a lot of people make. Is they kind of see referrals introductions as the icing on the cake?

(08:37) Bill Cates: And if we're doing a good job and we have net promoter scores, we have these people willing to do it. And some of them will, but they're not really the icing it's they are the cake. Right? Think about for just about every business person watching this right now, how would your great client or customer prefer to meet you? Not what can work from time to time, but how would they prefer to meet you? And my guess is in most cases, it's a recommendation from someone else they already trust. And so we need to make sure that that's our prime way of meeting new people. I'm not saying that other marketing strategies don't have their place. Of course they do. And when we're leveraging these great relationships, everything gets easier. And what does it cost for referral, right? You want your profitability go up the referral process? And I should say introductions because these days we're really trying to use the word. Introductions is probably the one marketing strategy than I know about that can actually increase revenue without increasing your marketing budget and therefore profitability sore. So, uh, that's, that's kinda my take. So having those processes in place to do that.

(09:51) Simon: I love it. And now we have the MPS in place. We have a system that tracks, uh who's who says that they want to refer us. We follow up, we ask. What's next? What, what do we have to take into consideration? Or how does it become a system that you would say now it's a good referral system.

(10:14) Bill Cates: Yeah. So, um, I, so asking is important. There's no question that it's usually going to be the salesperson. Whoever's the main relationship, the business development person. They're usually the person who will ask, uh, th but it's not just asking it. It really is a culture that we're trying to build. And it's a culture that accompany will build. And sometimes it's even kind of a culture that an individual sales person or rep will also create with his or her clients or customers. So, uh, part of it is making sure the entire company understands, what are we trying to accomplish here? Right. We're trying to become, so referrable in the eyes of our clients. So it's create such great relationships that we will start getting more without asking. And we're going to measure that. And everyone in the company has a role in that, right? Whether you're in sales or whatever you do, everyone has a role in that in some form or another.

So what is your role? What is your contribution to that? And let's measure that. The next thing of course, is the asking and monitoring and doing it the right way and measuring the behavior necessary. I'll just real quick on asking one of the most important things and asking that most people don't do is come prepared for the ask. Meaning the mistake most people make is they go, Oh gosh, who else do you know that we can help? Or is there anyone else you think should be aware of what we do? And I suppose that's better than nothing. And occasionally lightning strikes and you might get one, but really the better way is to think about this beforehand. And who do I know who they know, who I'd like to meet? What circles do they, they do. They run in their vendors, the other people, right?

Who they're their ex business partner, who can I bring to this conversation to suggest, are there categories of people doing certain things that, uh, that are candidates for the work we do? And so we can help our clients picture them in their mind's eye. That's what the ask is about, is getting them to picture people in their mind's eye. So that's a very tactical part of all this. And, and then the whole idea of celebrating and encouraging the advocates. So whether it's client appreciation events, whether it's, uh, some businesses will we'll create what we call an ambassador club or an ambassador group. And these are the clients or customers that we know are our advocates. And we want to keep encouraging that, right? We want to keep make more of them, uh, and we want to reward them for their behavior. So here's, here's my, the way I look at it.

And these numbers are kind of very, very general, but it roughly 20% give or take of our clients, customers, you know, should be giving us referrals without asking. We should all be getting those another 20% give or take will never introduce us. Right. We can run into a burning building and save their children. They wouldn't do it. They're just not wired that way. Um, it doesn't mean they're not a great client, but they don't give into. And so the, the goldmine that most people are sitting on is that 60% where we have to nudge the process a little bit, where we have to create those great relationships and turn some of them into advocates. And so, uh, that's what we do. That's the broad culture building strategy of, uh, of how we make this work.

(13:32) Simon: We have clients who create ambassador groups when they are launching something, for example, a book. And so earlier they, they give the book to somebody to read to the, to their, to their core community. Hey, would you like to become an ambassador to groups like that? What's your experience what's, what's working.

(13:54) Bill Cates: Yeah. I, I think that's great. I mean, I think we should all have those types of, of, of groups and, you know, sometimes there'll be, uh, sometimes it's a temporary subgroup, but for something specific that you're launching, but I think we should all have kind of identify who these ambassadors are. Right. And then we just nurture those relationships. Hold on. I have a, um, cat sitting for my daughter, so we have a visitor, uh, his name is boo and he thinks he's a dog

(14:25) Simon: Sometimes.

(14:26) Bill Cates: Yeah. He he's, uh, you know, the one thing about the pandemic, right? Where everyone's working from home, we've become much more relaxed and flexible about these, these types of interruptions. Right. Uh, in any event I have, I have dogs over there, so we have to keep them separated. Um, anyway, where was we? Uh, we were talking about, uh, remind me what the question

(14:49) Simon: I forget. I'm thinking about why he thinks he's a dog.

(14:53) Bill Cates: He thinks he's a dog. We were talking about ambassadors. I don't know. Cause he just, I dunno, he's smart. He's smarter than the average cat. So ambassadors. Right. So I have what I call my VIP list and this is about 150 people that I am dead set on making sure I stay in touch and keep providing value and, and keep, uh, nurturing that relationship. And uh, so once a month I'll put that list up in front of me and I'll think, what can I send to them? What guide have I written? What video have I created that they might want to forward to their people, their reps and stuff, right? How can I serve them in some way in a value oriented way, pure value. So that when I do have an ask at some point where I do have a book, I'd like them to maybe mention or whatever it may be, they're happy to do it, right?

Cause I've been this continual source of value for them. So we're always trying to add to that list. Occasionally we'll take some people off. Uh, I don't send everything to everybody. And, and by the way, this is not a mass email. I do not send this, you know, the same exact email to 150 people where they can see their name was inserted. This, this is a one-to-one correspondence, roughly once a month. I miss a few months from time to time. Um, I'll be watching a football game, basketball game, something right movie, and I'll just be doing, you know, copy paste. Hey George, how are your kids? Copy paste. Hey Marie. You know, uh, have you finished that project by book copy paste? Right. So I make it a little personalized. Uh, th the main message is the same, but it's a one-to-one message. And I, I think, you know, in this age of one to many in this age of, uh, where we're just doing everything automated and, and that, you know, people appreciate it when we're doing something just for them.

(16:55) Simon: And, um, if this is such a human way and the respectful way, and it's, and it's seems to be the way that works. Now, let's talk about your next book. You have written for why a fifth book.

(17:10) Bill Cates: Oh, I have a lot of books I want to write. Well, um, first of all, my job, uh, the way I see it is, uh, is to learn, keep learning and think about what I'm learning, use it, my own business. And then how can I communicate that with other people so they can use it too. And it's a, you know, it's a great model. I love it. Right. And, and if you're an on, on, you know, a, an ongoing learner, a lifelong learner, it's perfect way, and you can make money at it too. And so, uh, so that's kind of the big motivation. Um, and, uh, so th the idea of the language of referrals came up because people do like the way I work things and construct a language. And, and then, and I'm going to have an audio version of this, because a lot of people, like the way I say it, whatever tone of voice inflection that I use, which is important, and everyone will be different, but at least it's kind of a guide an idea. Uh, and then what happened is when I thought about that, I thought the language of referrals, okay. What about the language of influence? What about the language of sales or the language of, uh, customer service or the language of whatever? Right. And so in the back of my mind is a possible series of helping people find the right words to say in different situations. So that's, um, you know, that's one of the things I'm doing.

(18:38) Simon: The next thing that is discussed a lot in our community right now, and in our masterminds publisher hybrid or self, yeah, I've done, I've done all that.

(18:49) Bill Cates: And I own two book covering publishing companies that I sold way back when, um, so generally speaking, I would say now in today's world, uh, probably self- publishing for most people, not everybody, but for most people, first of all, now, if you're famous and you have a big name, uh, and a publishing company really wants to get behind it, and they give you a big advance, they'll start to help sell the book. But most publishing companies don't sell books. They produce books, they package the books there, it's up to the author to get the sales going. And most authors don't realize that. And so I have three books with McGraw Hill. Uh, they paid me $10,000 in advance. Uh, I've earned way more than that. And, but that's, I'm one of the few, most authors do not earn more than their initial advance, which is quite a shame.

So you got to have an audience, you got to have a following all of that. Now, why do I say self-publish? Well, because these days it's so much easier and so much less expensive to get a good quality book done. Now, two things to a quality book. First of all, the production, the cover, what it looks like very important. Obviously it needs to be first-class professional, but the book itself also needs to be quite good. So you don't want to have a book just to have a book. You really want to have a good book. And every book that I've written, it's taken me a year, at least if not to write it only because I wanted to teach it and write it and teach it and write it and teaching it right. And it made it a better book because I learned things as I taught my ideas and write, and I got other ideas from people I taught and refined, et cetera, et cetera.

My last book, radical relevance, I did self-publish and, uh, you know, the cost per book, uh, is much lower when you, when you go with a publisher, you have to buy the books back from them. And if you don't negotiate a really good buyback price, it's going to cost a lot of money for you to be able to give that book out as a nice business card and to thank people. And right. It costs a lot of money, $10 a book, maybe more so when you self-publish, then you get the books for a few dollars. Uh, so there's a lot more range of things you can do with the book. Um, that's a little bit on that. I mean, that we could do a whole show on that, but that's just a little bit of thinking there

(21:17) Simon: You use referral elements to promote the book and how.

(21:24) Bill Cates: Yeah, of course. Um, yeah. So, um, one of the things I did, I learned this actually from, uh, uh, Simon Sinek that Simon Sinek, sorry, Seth Goden. I don't know how I got those two confused, but when Seth, you know, somebody orders a book or emails, a book out to someone an influencer, right. Or, uh, an advocate he'll mail two or three or four books. And I'll say one of these is for you pass the others on to others. Right. So see, the thing about a book is the book doesn't do you a lot of good, this is some good, but then new years much good unless people actually read it. And so he wanted people to read his books. So when people actually read the books, then that creates all the value in the opportunity for speaking and consulting. You know, the, the, the, the saying I use, and a lot of colleagues in, in my business say is, you know, the, you won't make a lot of money from the book selling the book.

I mean, some people do, but those are the exceptions you'll make money by having the book. And so if you're up for a speaking engagement, for instance, if you have a book and your competitor, doesn't, they may very well give the nod to you because of that. So that's that area of expertise and credibility. Um, so yeah, we're always encouraging. Now, one thing I did with my book, uh, radical relevance, and I learned this from a colleague of mine. So, you know, I, like I said, I learned from others and then, and then share what I learned. So I have a page in this book a couple of times it says, register this book, right. And so what happened? I didn't want the book to be too large because I want people to read it, but I had a lot of content. So I have people get the book and then they registered, they go onto a website, they register, uh, and then they get access to a lot more. And so what happened is I've created a community of people who read the book and they've registered for more material. They are turning into coaching and consulting clients for me, uh, we're doing special webinars for, it's a, it's a, it's a sub-community that I've created because of that.

(23:33) Simon: Love it. And um I'm talking of books, usually people who write so many books are also readers. What are three books may be that really influenced you?

(23:47) Bill Cates: Yeah. You know, that's a hard question to answer, cause I have read a lot of books and, and I, you know, I'd have to go through my bookcases and I used to love box of books since then, since we moved. Cause I don't have as much space here, uh, when we moved out of our big office. But, uh, so a few, uh, uh, it's a book that's not available anymore, so don't try to go get it. But it's a book called expecting referrals that I read about 30 years ago. Uh, and it w it's what got me into this whole world of teaching referrals and introductions. Uh, I was, I read the book and then I was listening to the audio tapes. Uh, some people were too young to remember audio tapes, but I was listening to those. And, and that's what got me interested in this whole topic of referrals.

So I built a pretty nice business because I read that book. Uh, another book that I, that I love, which is not a business book per se directly, it's called younger next year by Chris Crowley and Henry lodge younger next year. And it's about guys like me and gals, a little older, uh, how do we, how do we stay more youthful? How do we stay more youthful physically, mentally? Uh, so that had a big impact. And then actually one of my most recent books that I read this summer was at atomic habits by James clear. And some folks probably will be familiar with that. Uh, and that's, that's been a great book for me influencing myself and how I make some changes I want to make in my business and in myself. And then some things that I also use to teach others. So those are the, those are the three that have influenced me that came to mind, uh, you know, for this program.

(25:22) Simon: Beautiful. What did you recently change your mind about?

(25:28) Bill Cates: Well, I'll tell you one thing. Uh, I used to do these live in person bootcamps where people pay their own way and they'd come in and they'd sit and we'd have a, you know, a day and a half immersion into my material. And I was thinking, you know, maybe I'll have one when the pandemic breaks and people can travel again. Uh, and then I go, you know, in my heart of hearts, I really don't want to do that. Right. It's could I make money? Yeah. It, would it be a good thing for my community and help people? Yeah. But in my heart of hearts, I really don't want to do it for reasons we don't have to go into, but, uh, so that's, I did an assessment as I was thinking of 2021 of what are all the different things I can do to serve people and generate revenue.

Uh, and there were, there's a lot of things on the table that I could do, but what do I really want to do? What gives me joy? What am I great at? What energizes me, all of those questions. Right. And I'm at the point now where I don't have to throw so much against the wall to see what sticks, uh, I know what works and I want to stay focused with that. So that's a long answer to the question, but just staying in the, in the, in the lanes of things I really, really enjoy doing and not getting attracted by other ways I can make money, but I really don't want to do it.

(26:48) Simon: I resonate a lot. I stopped last year in January doing in-person, anything events, workshops, and even coaching. I stopped doing everything. I certify coaches now. So I really resonated a lot with that. And I think when you have found something that works, you, you can, and you should start reducing the rest.

(27:12) Bill Cates: Yes. Yeah. Sometimes less is more. Yeah.

(27:15) Simon: And I, I think that's also one element of longevity and of keeping young.

(27:22) Bill Cates: That makes sense. Not getting pulled in too many directions at one time.

(27:26) Simon: And I'm also curious what's what's next. Now you're writing the book. What's next in, in your business. What are you excited about learning or doing next?

(27:37) Bill Cates: Well, let's see the book I got the video training. That's pretty all consuming. I would say, uh, I want to do a podcast. Uh, finally, um, you know, when people say, well, bill, you're kind of late to the game. Well, I don't know, you know, you don't want to do it just to do it. You want to do it because it makes a lot of sense to do it. And it took me a little while to get my head around what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it. Um, so finally, probably in the next quarter, I'm not, I'm not attending to that this quarter, but probably next quarter, I'll start to get serious about the podcast. And that just goes in line with what I talked about earlier is right. I love to learn and I love to share. And so I want to do short podcasts.

I don't, I don't care. I mean, it's not that I don't care, but I don't want to dwell on what's your story. How did you get here? I located cat. Um, how did you know, how did you get into the business and all that? I just, I want to get something. What, what are you doing now? That's working right. And that's what I want to get to people's strategies and tactics that people are doing now. And so it's going to be 10, 12 minutes going to be short. Um, and that's what I want to focus on. And, uh, you know, some people will know the podcast world know that there's kind of two benefits to a podcast. One is getting a lot of listeners and a lot of followers and you can get sponsors because of that, et cetera, et cetera. The other is what's called the Trojan horse, right? Where you can use it to meet people. And that's one of the big ways I'm going to use it just for my building my own business. It’s I want to interview people who could be potential. Influencers could be potential, uh, you know, clients, et cetera, et cetera. So that's, that's another big thing.

(29:21) Simon: And that I will be your first subscriber. Let me know. And also in terms of having sponsors, we have had options to have sponsors. And I have found out that I want this space myself. So this one you hearing us because that's such, such an real estate. You, you, you will think twice, uh, to give it away. Uh,

(29:47) Bill Cates: Understood. Yep. I get it.

(29:50) Simon: Because especially like yourself, if you are in such a high ticket, high leveraged, uh, business, uh, every single, every single listeners that clicks on your, on your site versus the sponsor that is so much more, um, cash than,

(30:09) Bill Cates: Oh yeah. We'll always make more money selling our stuff and helping other people sell their stuff. Uh, the, the way I see it though, and then we'll see how it plays out. Uh, and I appreciate what you're saying. I see the sponsorship is not just, you know, some revenue to pay for the exposure. Um, I see it more as a, as a possible partnership where they would also use the podcast, you know, to deliver to their clients, customers. Right. So I get access to their big list. Um, and so it multiplies, you know, uh, th the, the reach and it multiplies the impact that we have. So that's the way I see it, perhaps we'll see. Yeah, exactly.

(30:50) Simon: Yeah. That sounds good. Thank you. Now, if somebody is listening, say, Oh yeah, I want to up my referral game. I want to work with him. How do they start? Where do they find you?

(31:03) Bill Cates: Yeah, sure. I appreciate that. Uh, well, my website is referral That's pretty simple referral coach. I have a free report for everybody's listening, free guide, uh, and it's called exponential growth Let me say that again. Exponential growth It's free. Go get it. And gosh, I, you know, I certainly would love people to check out my new book and see if it's relevant to them, radical relevance. And that's, uh, what's the, uh, radical relevance sorry, radical relevance So those are three places to get into my world and you'll see, I'm very responsive. We'll love to hear from people and answer your questions, et cetera.

(31:44) Simon: Thank you so much, bill for being on the show and please come back soon.

(31:50) Bill Cates: Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me. This has been great.

(31:53) Simon: Oh, who should be my next guest? Oh, who should be my next guest?

(31:59) Bill Cates: Well, I, I would recommend a gentleman by the name of, uh, Michael Goldberg. Michael Goldberg has written a book, uh, called knockout networking. Uh, what does knockout networking mean? Well, you understand networking right. Is forming a network of people that you can serve each other and all that good stuff. Uh, but Michael was a boxer. And so he uses boxing terms. Uh, and you know, when you're going to go to a networking event, what's your fight plan, uh, and all that. So he's a fun guy, and it's an interesting, and he's helping people network during this pandemic. When you can go to the live events, how do you keep your network going and how do you meet new people in more virtually? So, uh, Michael Goldberg, knockout, networking, I think, would be a great guest.

(32:45) Simon: And who would you nominate for the strategy award?

(32:49) Bill Cates: Yeah, the strategy award, uh, which you said, you know, who's, who's zigging on everyone, zagging. Uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, uh, tell you about somebody that nobody on this, this show has probably heard before is someone I've met recently was introduced to me as a referral. His name was Michael shine. Uh, S C H E I N. He runs an agency in New York, uh, but he's written a book and I had a privilege of reading the galleys of the book. Uh, it should be out soon if it's not out yet. It's called the hype handbook, the hype H Y P E handbook. And it's a series of these great stories and examples and anecdotes of creative marketers and how they've used very creative, different ways to gain attention for their business. And it's more than just hype. I know that word hype maybe might have a negative connotation to some people, but don't let that stop you because it's really, it's more than hype, right. Uh, and anyway, I just, I think it's a great book. I think it's going to do very well. And I, and I really, I already recommend it to people.

(33:54) Simon: I love it already. Thank you so much bill for being on this show and come back soon. 

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